Tuning-Math Digests messages 7576 - 7600

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Message: 7576

Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:15:33

Subject: Re: Math Resources

From: monz

hi Rohan,


you left a letter out of the URL.  here's the correct one:

Application of Vedic Mathematics, Vedic Maths, Vedic Math, Free Courses *


-monz


--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "sikkaharyana" 
<sikkaharyana@y...> wrote:
> Dear Friends,
> 
> There is an website which can help students of any
> age to understand math very easily. they r providing
> Vedic Mathematics tools using which students can enhance
> their calculation speed 10 to 15 times faster than
> using conventional methods of calculation.


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Message: 7579

Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 01:41:58

Subject: T[n] revisited

From: Carl Lumma

>Fourththirds[5]

Name[size]

>[16/15, 28/27, 77/75]

The commas.

>[1, -1, 3, -4, -4, 2, -10, 10, -6, -22]

Map?

>[[1, 2, 2, 4, 2], [0, -1, 1, -3, 4]]

Za?

>bad 6476.838089 comp 20.25383770 rms 43.03787612
>graham 7 scale size 5

"graham" is Graham complexity, I assume?  What's "comp"?

>Heptadec[9] [36/35, 56/55, 77/75]
>[5, 3, 7, 4, -7, -3, -11, 8, -1, -13]
>[[1, 1, 2, 2, 3], [0, 5, 3, 7, 4]]
>bad 6400.766110 comp 32.19555159 rms 19.64440328
>graham 7 scale size 9
>
>
>Blackwood[10]
>[0, 5, 0, 8, 0, -14]
>[[5, 8, 12, 14], [0, 0, -1, 0]]
>bad 1662.988586 comp 10.25428060 rms 15.81535241
>graham 5 scale size 10 ratio 2.000000
>
>
>Pajara[10]
>[2, -4, -4, -11, -12, 2]
>[[2, 3, 5, 6], [0, 1, -2, -2]]
>bad 1550.521632 comp 11.92510946 rms 10.90317748
>graham 6 scale size 10 ratio 1.666667
>
>
>Pajarous[10] [50/49, 55/54, 64/63]
>[2, -4, -4, 10, -11, -12, 9, 2, 37, 42]
>[[2, 3, 5, 6, 6], [0, 1, -2, -2, 5]]
>bad 6667.906202 comp 43.76707564 rms 12.26714784
>graham 14 scale size 10
>
>
>Check this out Carl[10]
>[2, 1, -4, -3, -12, -12]
>[[1, 1, 2, 4], [0, 2, 1, -4]]
>bad 2431.810368 comp 9.849243627 rms 25.06824586
>graham 6 scale size 10 ratio 1.666667
>
>
>Here's another Carl[10]
>[2, 6, 6, 5, 4, -3]
>[[2, 3, 4, 5], [0, 1, 3, 3]]
>bad 2682.600306 comp 11.92510946 rms 18.86388854
>graham 6 scale size 10 ratio 1.666667
>
>
>NB Carl
>[2, 6, 6, 5, 4, -3]
>[[2, 3, 4, 5], [0, 1, 3, 3]]
>bad 2682.600306 comp 11.92510946 rms 18.86388854
>graham 6 scale size 10 ratio 1.666667

I assume your maple can turn these into generator/ie pairs?

>Dominant sevenths[7]
>rms error 20.163 cents
>
>
>Hemifourths[9]
>rms error 12.690
>
>
>Tertiathirds[9]
>rms error 12.189 cents
>
>
>Hexadecimal[9]
>rms error 18.585

Where, pray tell, is the Official Source of data on these?

-Carl


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Message: 7581

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 12:04:37

Subject: Re: T[n] revisited

From: Carl Lumma

Gene?  You said NB, and NB I did.

-C.

At 01:41 AM 10/13/2003, I wrote:
>>Fourththirds[5]
>
>Name[size]
>
>>[16/15, 28/27, 77/75]
>
>The commas.
>
>>[1, -1, 3, -4, -4, 2, -10, 10, -6, -22]
>
>Map?
>
>>[[1, 2, 2, 4, 2], [0, -1, 1, -3, 4]]
>
>Za?
>
>>bad 6476.838089 comp 20.25383770 rms 43.03787612
>>graham 7 scale size 5
>
>"graham" is Graham complexity, I assume?  What's "comp"?
>
>>Heptadec[9] [36/35, 56/55, 77/75]
>>[5, 3, 7, 4, -7, -3, -11, 8, -1, -13]
>>[[1, 1, 2, 2, 3], [0, 5, 3, 7, 4]]
>>bad 6400.766110 comp 32.19555159 rms 19.64440328
>>graham 7 scale size 9
>>
>>
>>Blackwood[10]
>>[0, 5, 0, 8, 0, -14]
>>[[5, 8, 12, 14], [0, 0, -1, 0]]
>>bad 1662.988586 comp 10.25428060 rms 15.81535241
>>graham 5 scale size 10 ratio 2.000000
>>
>>
>>Pajara[10]
>>[2, -4, -4, -11, -12, 2]
>>[[2, 3, 5, 6], [0, 1, -2, -2]]
>>bad 1550.521632 comp 11.92510946 rms 10.90317748
>>graham 6 scale size 10 ratio 1.666667
>>
>>
>>Pajarous[10] [50/49, 55/54, 64/63]
>>[2, -4, -4, 10, -11, -12, 9, 2, 37, 42]
>>[[2, 3, 5, 6, 6], [0, 1, -2, -2, 5]]
>>bad 6667.906202 comp 43.76707564 rms 12.26714784
>>graham 14 scale size 10
>>
>>
>>Check this out Carl[10]
>>[2, 1, -4, -3, -12, -12]
>>[[1, 1, 2, 4], [0, 2, 1, -4]]
>>bad 2431.810368 comp 9.849243627 rms 25.06824586
>>graham 6 scale size 10 ratio 1.666667
>>
>>
>>Here's another Carl[10]
>>[2, 6, 6, 5, 4, -3]
>>[[2, 3, 4, 5], [0, 1, 3, 3]]
>>bad 2682.600306 comp 11.92510946 rms 18.86388854
>>graham 6 scale size 10 ratio 1.666667
>>
>>
>>NB Carl
>>[2, 6, 6, 5, 4, -3]
>>[[2, 3, 4, 5], [0, 1, 3, 3]]
>>bad 2682.600306 comp 11.92510946 rms 18.86388854
>>graham 6 scale size 10 ratio 1.666667
>
>I assume your maple can turn these into generator/ie pairs?
>
>>Dominant sevenths[7]
>>rms error 20.163 cents
>>
>>
>>Hemifourths[9]
>>rms error 12.690
>>
>>
>>Tertiathirds[9]
>>rms error 12.189 cents
>>
>>
>>Hexadecimal[9]
>>rms error 18.585
>
>Where, pray tell, is the Official Source of data on these?
>
>-Carl


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Message: 7583

Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:13:42

Subject: Re: T[n] revisited

From: Carl Lumma

>> >[1, -1, 3, -4, -4, 2, -10, 10, -6, -22]
>> 
>> Map?
>
>The wedgie

Ah.

>> >[[1, 2, 2, 4, 2], [0, -1, 1, -3, 4]]
>> 
>> Za?
>
>This is the prime mapping.

Ok, I should have known this.  But it never hurts to
label these things in your posts.

//
>> >Check this out Carl[10]
>> >[2, 1, -4, -3, -12, -12]
>> >[[1, 1, 2, 4], [0, 2, 1, -4]]
>> >bad 2431.810368 comp 9.849243627 rms 25.06824586
>> >graham 6 scale size 10 ratio 1.666667
>
>Generator: 358.03
>
>> >
>> >Here's another Carl[10]
>> >[2, 6, 6, 5, 4, -3]
>> >[[2, 3, 4, 5], [0, 1, 3, 3]]
>> >bad 2682.600306 comp 11.92510946 rms 18.86388854
>> >graham 6 scale size 10 ratio 1.666667
>
>Generators: [600, 128.51]

Thanks, dude!

Did you use one of your maple routines to do this?

-Carl


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Message: 7587

Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 21:40:39

Subject: can someone check this data?

From: Paul Erlich

Yahoo groups: /tuning-math/files/Paul/ *


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Message: 7588

Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 21:41:01

Subject: can someone check this data?

From: Paul Erlich

Yahoo groups: /tuning-math/files/Paul/test.html *


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Message: 7590

Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 18:51:52

Subject: Re: can someone check this data?

From: Carl Lumma

Awesome!  Sorry I can't help check it.

How'd you get this html?  'd be nice to have a database
with column-sort.  If you're doing this in Excel, you can
export as a CSV file, which Yahoo's database thingy can
then import (I assume that's how you did the 5-limit
database?).

Oh, and where are the TM-reduced bases?

-Carl


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Message: 7591

Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:24:35

Subject: Re: can someone check this data?

From: Manuel Op de Coul

So I've picked a few to check, and got the same results.
Only one very slight difference in the RMS error of meantone,
you have 4.217731 and I got 4.217730, but for the rest they
were exactly the same.

>no, they're 5-limit linear temperaments, and 2 minus 1 equals 1.

Yes, I was temporarily confused.

Manuel


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Message: 7592

Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 16:50:37

Subject: Re: can someone check this data?

From: Manuel Op de Coul

Now I checked more and found a few more differences in RMS values.
I'm beginning to worry about my square root routine. Could someone
else verify, for example for counterschismic, is the RMS error
0.026391 as Paul gives or 0.026394? Gene, Graham?
Thanks,

Manuel


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Message: 7593

Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 12:44:15

Subject: Re: can someone check this data?

From: Carl Lumma

>> Oh, and where are the TM-reduced bases?
>
>the comma, silly goose!

Weird, I didn't see the right side of the page the
first time.

-Carl


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Message: 7594

Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 19:46:14

Subject: Re: [5-11]-prime-space p-block and 13edo

From: monz

since the ASCII lattice i posted below got messed up by
Yahoo (even "Expand Messages" didn't work for me this time),
here's a good quality image of the lattice:

Yahoo groups: /tuning_files/files/monz/[5-11]- *
primespace-13edo.gif

or

Sign In - *



--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
>
> so i set up a prime-space consisting of the
> euler-genus 5^(-1...+5) * 11^(-2...+3) .
> 
> 
> and found these two unison-vectors:
> 
> 
>   ~cents   [2,5,11]-monzo   ratio
> 
> 56.30525686 [  0  3 -2]    125/121  
> 
> 26.58125482 [-15  2  3]  33275/32768 
> 
> 
> ... and voila, out popped 13edo.
> 
> 
> the 13-tone JI periodicity-block given by these
> unison-vectors is shown on this lattice:
> 
> 1/1 is the reference note, the unison-vectors
> are shown by "X", and notes not included in the
> periodicity-block are shown as "()"
> 
> 
> ()------()--------X-----------()----------()
>  |       |        |            |           |
> ()------()----3025/2048---15125/8192------()
>  |       |        |            |           |
> ()-----55/32---275/256-----1375/1024---6875/4096
>  |       |        |            |           |
> 1/1-----5/4-----25/16-------125/64------625/512
>  |       |        |            |           |
> ()------()------25/22-------125/88--------()
>  |       |        |            |           |
> ()------()-------()------------X----------()





-monz


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Message: 7595

Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 20:54:03

Subject: Re: can someone check this data?

From: Graham Breed

Manuel Op de Coul wrote:
> Now I checked more and found a few more differences in RMS values.
> I'm beginning to worry about my square root routine. Could someone
> else verify, for example for counterschismic, is the RMS error
> 0.026391 as Paul gives or 0.026394? Gene, Graham?

Yes, my RMS routine was much wronger, but I've fixed that now.  I get 
4.217730 cents for meantone and 0.026394 for this 53&306 thing.


                        Graham


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Message: 7596

Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 00:12:31

Subject: Re: Chains of fifths and notation

From: Dave Keenan

--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...>
wrote:
> George tells us that each of 36/35, 64/63 and 5120/5103 is sagittally
> symbolized, and so is 55/54 (but not 385/384,) so D7 systems are
> pretty well covered. So far as Septimal Meantone goes, none of
> 126/125, 225/224 or 3136/3125 seems to have a symbol, nor do 99/98,
> 176/174, 441/440, 1375/1372, 5632/5625, 385/384 or 540/539. A symbol
> for 385/384 and one for either of 126/125 or 225/224 and either of
> 99/98 or 176/175 would be nice if other 81/80 systems were to be
included.

Some of these will be exactly symbolised in the final system, using
accented symbols, it's just that they have not yet been finalised to
the satisfaction of both George and I, and at present we're devoting
our time to the article explaining the basic (unaccented) system.

It's highly probable that each of the following will be the primary
meaning of some accented sagittal symbol.

385/384
126/125
225/224
99/98

But the following are very unlikely to be primary symbol
interpretations, because there are other more popular (usually less
complex) kommas which are very close to them (typically within 0.4 c).
In that case you can simply use the symbol for that nearby komma and
explain somewhere that that's what you are doing (assuming you don't
also need that symbol for its primary purpose, which is fairly
unlikely). We refer to this as using a symbol in a secondary role.

176/175
3136/3125
441/440
1375/1372
5632/5625
540/539

Regards,
-- Dave Keenan


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Message: 7597

Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 03:22:17

Subject: Re: Chains of fifths and notation

From: Dave Keenan

This is a long overdue reply to Gene in "Re: Polyphonic notation" on
the tuning list
Yahoo groups: /tuning/message/47497 *

--- In tuning@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> wrote:
> --- In tuning@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@b...> wrote:
> 
> > We have also used a temperament to help decide on the actual symbols
> > to be used for the comma ratios in the superset. This is an
> > 8-dimensional temperament with a maximum error of 0.39 cents. The 8
> > dimensions relate to the 9 flags (including the accent mark) that 
> make
> > up the symbols, less one degree of freedom because a certain
> > combination is set equal to the apotome. 
> 
> What commas are being tempered out? 

I'm afraid I don't know. I just specified certain combinations of
generators to approximate certain 23-limit ratios (which were
themselves commas, but were not being tempered out) and solved
numerically for the generators. If you're still interested, maybe
there's some other information I could give you if you wanted to work
them out. But it may have to wait some time.

> > Well I think the fact that we have Graham proposing MIRACLE
> > temperament with 10 nominals and Gene proposing ennealimmal
> > temperament with 9 nominals should make it clear that there is
> > unlikely to ever be agreement on which is the ultimate temperament 
> for
> > notating everything else including ratios.
> 
> My proposal is simply intended to notate effective 7-limit JI 
> (extendible to 11-limit) not everything.

Fine.


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Message: 7598

Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 08:20:06

Subject: [5-11]-prime-space p-block and 13edo

From: monz

playing around with my software, i noticed that
13edo, which does not have anything resembling a
3:2 "perfect-5th", gives a not-really-horrible 
approximation of 5:4 (just a little worse than
that of 12edo, but in the opposite direction),
and a very good approximation of 11:8 :

2^(4/13) = ~369.2307692 cents, ~17.08294463 less than 5:4

2^(6/13) = ~553.8461538 cents, ~2.528211481 more than 11:8



so i set up a prime-space consisting of the
euler-genus 5^(-1...+5) * 11^(-2...+3) .


and found these two unison-vectors:


  ~cents   [2,5,11]-monzo   ratio

56.30525686 [  0  3 -2]    125/121  

26.58125482 [-15  2  3]  33275/32768 


... and voila, out popped 13edo.


the 13-tone JI periodicity-block given by these
unison-vectors is shown on this lattice:

1/1 is the reference note, the unison-vectors
are shown by "X", and notes not included in the
periodicity-block are shown as "()"


()------()--------X-----------()----------()
 |       |        |            |           |
()------()----3025/2048---15125/8192------()
 |       |        |            |           |
()-----55/32---275/256-----1375/1024---6875/4096
 |       |        |            |           |
1/1-----5/4-----25/16-------125/64------625/512
 |       |        |            |           |
()------()------25/22-------125/88--------()
 |       |        |            |           |
()------()-------()------------X----------()




i'd be interested in any feedback anyone has
on this.





-monz


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Message: 7599

Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2003 11:06:54

Subject: Re: [5-11]-prime-space p-block and 13edo

From: Manuel Op de Coul

I will add this scale to the archive.

Speaking of lattices, I have improved the lattice player
in Scala. Now it will also display nonrational intervals,
so one can use it for the "bingocard" type.
Go to Analyse:Lattice and player, click the 2D play button,
tick the "Nearest in emtpy positions" checkbox and set an
amount of rows and columns.

Manuel


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