Tuning-Math Digests messages 11102 - 11126

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Message: 11102

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 00:47:07

Subject: Re: Paul's nifty fifty

From: Paul Erlich

--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> 
wrote:
> --- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...> 
wrote:
> 
> > Fine. Anyone have a problem with this? Only a few days left.
> 
> Yipe! Don't we get to see your draft before you submit it?

Sure . . . the window might be quite small, though.


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Message: 11106

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 16:10:56

Subject: Re: Paul's nifty fifty

From: Paul Erlich

--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> 
wrote:
> Paul Erlich wrote:
> >>How about "armadillo" in place of "kleismic", and "pangolin" in 
> > 
> > place
> > 
> >>of "nonkleismic"?
> > 
> > 
> > Fine. Anyone have a problem with this? Only a few days left.
> 
> If 5-limit kleismic is "hanson", what about "keenan" for what we've 
been 
> calling 7-limit kleismic, <<6, 5, 3, -6, -12, -7]]?

I'll ask Dave.

>(Larry Hanson's 
> paper implies a "catakleismic" 7-limit mapping, <<6, 5, 22, -6, 18, 
> 37]]: see http://www.anaphoria.com/hanson.PDF *, fig. 12, which 
implies a 
> mapping of [0, 6, 5, 22],

Thanks for pointing this out . . . but the paper indicates that this 
was Wilson's idea, not Hanson's. I'm not going to worry about this 
right now.

> while on the other hand Dave Keenan's page at 
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/d.keenan/Music/ChainOfMinor3rds.htm * 
implies 
> a [0, 6, 5, 3] mapping.)
> 
> Admittedly, "nonkleismic" isn't a very good name, especially for 
> something that extends to a (theoretically) good 11-limit and even 
a 
> reasonably good 13-limit version.
> 
> <<10, 9, 7, 25, -9, -17, 5, -9, 27, 46]]
> <<10, 9, 7, 25, -5, -9, -17, 5, -45, -9, 27, -45, 46, -40, -110]]
> 
> So something like that deserves a pretty unique and memorable name, 
and 
> a pangolin is a pretty unique and memorable sort of animal.

Well, it's related to an armadillo, so it might be nice to use the 
two names for related temperaments. Let's see . . .


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Message: 11107

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 16:48:58

Subject: Re: Paul's nifty fifty

From: Paul Erlich

--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> 
wrote:

> [6, 10, 3, 2, -12, -21] minorsemi?

I suggest "nautilus" for this one -- look at the floragram:

Yahoo groups: /tuning-math/files/Paul/nautilus.gif *

Unfortunately I still have some bugs in some of my floragrams (maybe 
they're trying to make honey), so it looks like it'll be good old 
horagrams for the paper.


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Message: 11110

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 19:56:12

Subject: Re: Paul's nifty fifty

From: Paul Erlich

--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> 
wrote:
> Paul Erlich wrote:
> > --- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Gene Ward Smith" 
<gwsmith@s...> 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > 
> >>[1, -8, -14, -15, -25, -10] septischismic?
> > 
> > 
> > Continuing on our kick of naming after people, I might call this 
> > Garibaldi, since Eduardo Sabat-Garibaldi gave names to 5120/5103 
> > ("Beta 5") and 33554432/33480783 ("Beta 2") in his study which 
> > yielded the 1/9-schisma, pure-octave version of this temperament. 
> > 4000/3969, though, may have escaped his attention (at least 
Manuel 
> > doesn't list any other "Beta"s, or any name for 4000/3969 at all).
> > 
> 
> That also fits the trend of animal names, since a garibaldi is a 
kind of 
> fish (Hypsypops rubicundus). But is anything wrong with 
plain "schismic" 
> for this one?

That doesn't tell you it's 7-limit, for one thing. For 
another, "schismic" is plain to us, but we've been talking to each 
other, and practically only to each other, for years.


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Message: 11111

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 19:58:37

Subject: Re: Paul's nifty fifty

From: Paul Erlich

--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> 
wrote:
> Paul Erlich wrote:
> > --- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> 
> > wrote:
> > 
> >>a pangolin is a pretty unique and memorable sort of animal.
> > 
> > 
> > Well, it's related to an armadillo, so it might be nice to use 
the 
> > two names for related temperaments. Let's see . . .
> 
> Similar, but not closely related (armadillos are related to 
sloths). 
> Still, it would be nice to use the name "armadillo" for something. 
It 
> would be even better if there was something related to the number 9 
in 
> the temperament, since one of the more common kinds of armadillo is 
a 
> nine-banded armadillo.

It would be awesome if Gene permitted the word "ennealimmal" to morph 
into the similar sounding word "armadillo".


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Message: 11112

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 20:02:26

Subject: Re: Paul's nifty fifty

From: Paul Erlich

You know I disagree with virtually all of this -- I'd love to see 
your set of systematic names for these 50 temperaments, and then I 
might eat my words.





--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@b...> 
wrote:
> --- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Gene Ward Smith" 
<gwsmith@s...> 
> wrote:
> > --- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> 
> wrote:
> > > Paul Erlich wrote:
> > > >>How about "armadillo" in place of "kleismic", and "pangolin" 
> in 
> > > > 
> > > > place
> > > > 
> > > >>of "nonkleismic"?
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Fine. Anyone have a problem with this? Only a few days left.
> > > 
> > > If 5-limit kleismic is "hanson", what about "keenan" for what 
> we've
> > been 
> > > calling 7-limit kleismic, <<6, 5, 3, -6, -12, -7]]? (Larry 
> Hanson's 
> > > paper implies a "catakleismic" 7-limit mapping, <<6, 5, 22, -6, 
> 18, 
> > > 37]]: see http://www.anaphoria.com/hanson.PDF *, fig. 12, which 
> implies a 
> > > mapping of [0, 6, 5, 22], while on the other hand Dave Keenan's 
> page at 
> > > http://users.bigpond.net.au/d.keenan/Music/ChainOfMinor3rds.htm * 
> implies 
> > > a [0, 6, 5, 3] mapping.)
> > 
> > Thanks for this! I've been promoting "hanson" as the new name for
> > catakleismic. I think "keenan" makes sense, though admittedly it 
> isn't
> > as cute a name as armadillo. Given Dave's views on naming things,
> > someone had better ask him if he'd allow it first if Paul likes it
> > enough for the paper.
> 
> Dear Herman, Gene and Paul E., 
> 
> Thanks for thinking of me here. And thanks especially Gene for 
> suggesting to ask me. 
> 
> I know you all think I'm a spoilsport with regard to the naming of 
> commas and temperaments, but I really don't think eponyms are much 
> better than the cryptic (or even meaningless) names that I also 
> object to. 
> 
> Sure these names are fun (mostly for those who get to make them 
up), 
> but they are of very little help to the person trying to break into 
> this stuff from scratch. They are of no educational assistance 
apart 
> from being _a_ name as opposed to no name, except in those few 
cases 
> where (a) there is a connection, albeit a cryptic one, between the 
> name and some memorable property of the temperament, and (b) this 
> connection is explained along with the giving of the name. "Orwell" 
> is the only one that comes to mind, with its generator near 19/84 
> ths of an octave. Although it probably isn't much help for younger 
> people who haven't heard of the book and it's author.
> 
> Some time ago, I was impressed by a note regarding eponyms in the 
> back of a well-regarded University-level textbook, 'Principles of 
> Anatomy and Physiology' by Tortora and Grabowski, now in its 10th 
> edition. I found this a very easy book to read and understand and I 
> have no background in the field, beyond high school biology and 
> chemistry.
> 
> I just found the same note on the web, so you can read it for 
> yourselves. It comes immediately after the heading "CHANGES IN 
> TERMINOLOGY" on this page:
> Addison-Wesley and Benjamin Cummings-Page Not Found *
> PRE,00.html
> 
> They instead named parts according to their properties, e.g. their 
> function or location or appearance etc. It just seems obvious to me 
> that from an educational point of view this is vastly superior.
> 
> So no. I'd prefer you didn't call it "keenan". But perhaps instead 
> of doing me that honour, you will do me the honour of considering 
my 
> wishes regarding how it ought to be named, particularly since that 
> didn't happen when I begged off "keenan's kleisma" for the same 
> reason. I'd prefer you left well-enough alone and continued to call 
> it 7-limit kleismic. The same goes for schismic. Has Graham breed 
> been consulted about renaming that?
> 
> These names have been in use for over a decade and they do relate 
to 
> a property of the temperament, namely the comma that vanishes. 
> 
> Admittedly this isn't my favourite property on which to base a new 
> name. I prefer to use the generator (and period if this is not a 
> whole octave, and relative complexity if there is more than one of 
> interest with the same interval approximated by its generator). By 
> this reckoning it is simply "minor thirds". But I have a preference 
> for "kleismic" because it is already well established.
> 
> If it needs to be distinguished from other 7-limit extensions of (5-
> limit) kleismic which, sadly, you also want to rename eponymically, 
> then one could use the adjective "simple" the first time it is 
> mentioned, or simply give the generator prime mapping.
> 
> -- Dave Keenan


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Message: 11114

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 20:03:00

Subject: Re: Paul's nifty fifty

From: Paul Erlich

--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> 
wrote:
> Herman Miller wrote:
> 
> > Paul Erlich wrote:
> > 
> >>--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> 
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>a pangolin is a pretty unique and memorable sort of animal.
> >>
> >>
> >>Well, it's related to an armadillo, so it might be nice to use 
the 
> >>two names for related temperaments. Let's see . . .
> > 
> > 
> > Similar, but not closely related (armadillos are related to 
sloths). 
> > Still, it would be nice to use the name "armadillo" for 
something. It 
> > would be even better if there was something related to the number 
9 in 
> > the temperament, since one of the more common kinds of armadillo 
is a 
> > nine-banded armadillo.
> 
> I just realized that nonkleismic is a starling temperament 
(126/125). So 
> maybe a bird-related name would be better. Myna?

Sure, unless someone disagrees.


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Message: 11115

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 20:03:40

Subject: Re: Paul's nifty fifty

From: Paul Erlich

--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx Graham Breed <graham@m...> wrote:
> Dave Keenan wrote:
> 
> > it 7-limit kleismic. The same goes for schismic. Has Graham breed 
> > been consulted about renaming that?
> 
> i'm always here.  i've got a broken wrist so i don't post much.
> 
> 'schismic' has been around a long time as a 5-limit term, one 
speling or 
> another.  it's comes from the german, as used by and before 
helmholtz.
> 

Who used the temperament before Helmholtz, and how was it tuned?


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Message: 11116

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 20:05:13

Subject: Re: Paul's nifty fifty

From: Paul Erlich

--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> 
wrote:

> This leaves kleismic free 
> to be a purely 7-limit name,

But then its name fails to uniquely identify it (many temperament 
have a vanishing kleisma).


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Message: 11117

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 22:37:28

Subject: Re: Paul's nifty fifty

From: Dave Keenan

--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Paul Erlich" <perlich@a...> 
wrote:
> You know I disagree with virtually all of this -- I'd love to see 
> your set of systematic names for these 50 temperaments, and then I 
> might eat my words.

I doubt it. You're too far gone. ;-)

And there's no time before your paper has to be in. I'm away for the 
next 3 days.


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Message: 11118

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 02:47:13

Subject: Re: Paul's nifty fifty

From: Dave Keenan

--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> 
wrote:
> --- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx Herman Miller <hmiller@I...> 
wrote:
> > Paul Erlich wrote:
> > >>How about "armadillo" in place of "kleismic", and "pangolin" 
in 
> > > 
> > > place
> > > 
> > >>of "nonkleismic"?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Fine. Anyone have a problem with this? Only a few days left.
> > 
> > If 5-limit kleismic is "hanson", what about "keenan" for what 
we've
> been 
> > calling 7-limit kleismic, <<6, 5, 3, -6, -12, -7]]? (Larry 
Hanson's 
> > paper implies a "catakleismic" 7-limit mapping, <<6, 5, 22, -6, 
18, 
> > 37]]: see http://www.anaphoria.com/hanson.PDF *, fig. 12, which 
implies a 
> > mapping of [0, 6, 5, 22], while on the other hand Dave Keenan's 
page at 
> > http://users.bigpond.net.au/d.keenan/Music/ChainOfMinor3rds.htm * 
implies 
> > a [0, 6, 5, 3] mapping.)
> 
> Thanks for this! I've been promoting "hanson" as the new name for
> catakleismic. I think "keenan" makes sense, though admittedly it 
isn't
> as cute a name as armadillo. Given Dave's views on naming things,
> someone had better ask him if he'd allow it first if Paul likes it
> enough for the paper.

Dear Herman, Gene and Paul E., 

Thanks for thinking of me here. And thanks especially Gene for 
suggesting to ask me. 

I know you all think I'm a spoilsport with regard to the naming of 
commas and temperaments, but I really don't think eponyms are much 
better than the cryptic (or even meaningless) names that I also 
object to. 

Sure these names are fun (mostly for those who get to make them up), 
but they are of very little help to the person trying to break into 
this stuff from scratch. They are of no educational assistance apart 
from being _a_ name as opposed to no name, except in those few cases 
where (a) there is a connection, albeit a cryptic one, between the 
name and some memorable property of the temperament, and (b) this 
connection is explained along with the giving of the name. "Orwell" 
is the only one that comes to mind, with its generator near 19/84 
ths of an octave. Although it probably isn't much help for younger 
people who haven't heard of the book and it's author.

Some time ago, I was impressed by a note regarding eponyms in the 
back of a well-regarded University-level textbook, 'Principles of 
Anatomy and Physiology' by Tortora and Grabowski, now in its 10th 
edition. I found this a very easy book to read and understand and I 
have no background in the field, beyond high school biology and 
chemistry.

I just found the same note on the web, so you can read it for 
yourselves. It comes immediately after the heading "CHANGES IN 
TERMINOLOGY" on this page:
Addison-Wesley and Benjamin Cummings-Page Not Found *
PRE,00.html

They instead named parts according to their properties, e.g. their 
function or location or appearance etc. It just seems obvious to me 
that from an educational point of view this is vastly superior.

So no. I'd prefer you didn't call it "keenan". But perhaps instead 
of doing me that honour, you will do me the honour of considering my 
wishes regarding how it ought to be named, particularly since that 
didn't happen when I begged off "keenan's kleisma" for the same 
reason. I'd prefer you left well-enough alone and continued to call 
it 7-limit kleismic. The same goes for schismic. Has Graham breed 
been consulted about renaming that?

These names have been in use for over a decade and they do relate to 
a property of the temperament, namely the comma that vanishes. 

Admittedly this isn't my favourite property on which to base a new 
name. I prefer to use the generator (and period if this is not a 
whole octave, and relative complexity if there is more than one of 
interest with the same interval approximated by its generator). By 
this reckoning it is simply "minor thirds". But I have a preference 
for "kleismic" because it is already well established.

If it needs to be distinguished from other 7-limit extensions of (5-
limit) kleismic which, sadly, you also want to rename eponymically, 
then one could use the adjective "simple" the first time it is 
mentioned, or simply give the generator prime mapping.

-- Dave Keenan


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Message: 11119

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 22:42:33

Subject: Re: Paul's nifty fifty

From: Dave Keenan

--- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Gene Ward Smith" <gwsmith@s...> 
wrote:
> --- In tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxx "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@b...> 
> wrote:
> 
> > So no. I'd prefer you didn't call it "keenan". But perhaps 
instead 
> > of doing me that honour, you will do me the honour of 
considering 
> my 
> > wishes regarding how it ought to be named, particularly since 
that 
> > didn't happen when I begged off "keenan's kleisma" for the same 
> > reason. I'd prefer you left well-enough alone and continued to 
call 
> > it 7-limit kleismic. The same goes for schismic. Has Graham 
breed 
> > been consulted about renaming that?
> 
> The problem is that in both cases there is another 7-limit 
> temperament with a low badness figure which is much closer to the 
5-
> limit temperament in tuning, so the names are in a way deceptive.

So, like I said, call one "simple kleismic" and the other "complex 
kleismic", or even "simple-7 kleismic" and "complex-7 kleismic".

It doesn't make sense to have a completely unrelated name for the 
same temperament at a higher limit.


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Message: 11122

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 10:11:53

Subject: Re: Paul's nifty fifty

From: Graham Breed

Dave Keenan wrote:

> it 7-limit kleismic. The same goes for schismic. Has Graham breed 
> been consulted about renaming that?

i'm always here.  i've got a broken wrist so i don't post much.

'schismic' has been around a long time as a 5-limit term, one speling or 
another.  it's comes from the german, as used by and before helmholtz.


                        graham


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