Tuning-Math Digests messages 5603 - 5627

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Message: 5603

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 09:56:47

Subject: Re: Adaptive JI notated on staff

From: monz

i added Dave's graphic and a MIDI-file of it to my
"adaptive-JI" definition:

Definitions of tuning terms: adaptive JI, (c) 2000 by Joe Monzo *



-monz


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Keenan" <d.keenan@xx.xxx.xx>
To: <tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 8:01 PM
Subject: [tuning-math] Re: Adaptive JI notated on staff



> --- In tuning-math@y..., "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@u...> wrote:
>
> --- In tuning-math@y..., "emotionaljourney22" <paul@s...> wrote:
> >
> > right, but i'd like to see this actually notated, on a staff.
> 
 > Here it is.
> Yahoo groups: /tuning-math/files/Dave/AdaptiveJI.bmp *


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Message: 5606

Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2002 04:01:48

Subject: Re: Adaptive JI notated on staff

From: Dave Keenan

--- In tuning-math@y..., "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@y...>
wrote:
> --- In tuning-math@y..., "dkeenanuqnetau" <d.keenan@u...> wrote:
> > --- In tuning-math@y..., "emotionaljourney22" <paul@s...> wrote:
> > > right, but i'd like to see this actually notated, on a staff.
> > 
> > Here it is.
> > Yahoo groups: /tuning-math/files/Dave/AdaptiveJI.bmp *
> 
> this notation . . . personally, it doesn't do much for me -- for 
> example, looking at this 217-equal example,
> 
> Yahoo groups: /tuning-math/files/Dave/AdaptiveJI.bmp *
> 
> only a few of the pure thirds are immediately recognizable from the 
> notation, unless you've memorized all the symbols and the order in 
> which they occur in 217-equal. the symbol for a syntonic comma 
> alteration will quickly be learned by any user of the system, but all 
> the sets of symbols whose difference is a syntonic comma in a given 
> tuning?

Hi Paul. Thanks for your belated response. I totally agree with you re
the adaptive JI example. But surely you're not rejecting all possible
uses of the notation on the basis of that?

I gave that example, not because I thought it was a particularly good
use of the notation, but in response to your request in message 3993:

> > i think it would be cool if someone notated the adaptive-ji
version
> > of the chord progression
> >
> > Cmajor -> A minor -> D minor -> G major -> C major
> >
> > in 217-equal. then we could all look at it and see if we have any
> > major problems with it.

Can you tell us what you expect of a notation for 217-ET? How might it
be done better so the pure thirds could all be immediately
recognisable? Surely any notation for something as large as 217-ET
will require a significant learning curve?

Why not tell us instead how you feel about the way the notation would
work in your old favourite, 22-ET. It only needs one pair of new
symbols /| (for the 5-comma), and its semantics are the same as the
standard Scala one I've been promoting for ages, and I think it has
the same semantics as the one Alison Monteith uses. Or in 31-ET, where
there is also only one new pair of symbols /|\ which are
simultaneously the 7-comma and the 11-comma (a semi-sharp in this
case). Or in 72-ET where its semantics are identical to the Sims
notation. Only the symbols change. /|  |)  /|\


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Message: 5612

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2002 01:18:19

Subject: Re: Adaptive JI notated on staff

From: monz

> From: "wallyesterpaulrus" <wallyesterpaulrus@xxxxx.xxx>
> To: <tuning-math@xxxxxxxxxxx.xxx>
> Sent: Saturday, November 23, 2002 9:29 PM
> Subject: [tuning-math] Re: Adaptive JI notated on staff
>
>
> --- In tuning-math@y..., "monz" <monz@a...> wrote:
> > i added Dave's graphic and a MIDI-file of it to my
> > "adaptive-JI" definition:
> > 
> > Definitions of tuning terms: adaptive JI, (c) 2000 by Joe Monzo *
>
>
> you mention vicentino, but don't link to your fine
> page about him. note that the example in question
> (dave's) is a perfect illustration of what makes
> vicentino's tuning so good.


thanks, paul.  actually, i mentioned Vicentino twice
on the adaptive-JI definition page, and provided a link
to my Vicentino page at the second mention ... i had
just missed the first one, and a link has been added now.


hmmm ... should i include the Dave's illustration of the
217edo comma-pump progression on my Vicentino page?




-monz


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Message: 5624

Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 14:07:53

Subject: Re: Even more ridiculous 5-comma list

From: Pierre Lamothe

How the harmonic entropy approach could be conciliate with this approach?

Goethe said: (excuse for that bad translation from French) "Do you want to penetrate the infinity? Go always
away and in all directions in the finity."

In that sense I understand well the necessity to go away and far in all directions at same time, but it could be
already useful to confront, relatively to our capacity to perceive a kind of harmonic order, the over optimism
implied by the fanciest commas, with the slight pessimism, in my opinion, of the harmonic entropy.

( It's not there an attack against the harmonic entropy. I believe only the approach appears slightly pessimistic
for the level is the sensation one, so neglecting contextual reinforcement arising at perception level. )

Once the word ridiculous has been used, as to suggest one have to think at the limit, one have to elaborate on
the sense of a such limit. There is not only one valid perspective, but I believe we have to distinguish minimally
the perceptual one concerning the music and the technical one concerning the luthery. Where abondant decimals
of cents may have sense in the technical perspective, it becomes rather ridiculous (indeed) in the musical
perspective.

So, I invite to reflexion in view to precise sense and perspective of these few notions illustrated with so much
buch of numbers.

Pierre


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